Curse

curvekiller · Sep 26, 2012, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Since I haven't unlocked the third rit hero yet and I want to use razah and xandra for SoGM and SoS respectively, I'm looking for a decent N/Rt Soul Twisting build that can protect my entire party in the more difficult areas.
He should probably only use Shelter plus maybe Displacement.

Other than that, I really don't know which Necro assets I should even use, or which Attributes/Weapons I should use.

Is this even viable? Since you can get the Ritualist Attributes to 12 max and can't use Spawning power, the spirits will be a lot less durable...

Just looking for some input, thanks in advance.

Kaleban · Sep 26, 2012, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Use Razah or Xandra for the Soul Twisting build.

Put a Necro on SoGM duty.

Problem sorted.

Or skip SoGM/SoS. I generally run a N/Rt BiP healer for my casters, and bring along a bunch of mesmer damage/rupts, along with an air ele for BSurge and paragon shouts. On melee characters I'll still bring an N/Rt healer, along with an SoS/Splinter, and a couple of RoJ monks with SoH and such.

In all cases though I have Zei Ri as a Soul Twister, sometimes packing Mesmer illusion rupts, or a couple of Ranger spirits (Frozen Soil and Edge of Extinction primarily). But I never run SoGM anymore, as its too cumbersome to setup (unless microing every pull) and for most of the game the spirits tend to get left behind. I definitely prefer a more mobile and rapid form of gameplay, between BSurge and Mesmer rupts, much of the game is rendered helpless. Combined with one Rit providing Shelter and Displacement, you're golden.

curvekiller · Sep 27, 2012, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Nice tips. I'm guessing you don't use Necros much? No minions? (Except for the healing)
So in your opinion Soul Twisting is more important than SoGM, so I guess I'll make that my first choice then. I'll make Zei Ri a SoGM then later.
How many mesmers do you use? I use the two you get by default, but I'm guessing you have mercenaries?

projectmercy · Sep 27, 2012, 04:40 PM // 16:40

I second Kaleban's post. That's basically what I would have said.

ST doesn't really work on a necro. Primarily, because ST itself is a spawning power skill. At rank 1, the duration is only 8 seconds. For a player, you could probably get around this restriction, but for a hero they'll never do it. They'll cast ST as a buff, then do their merry thing. They'll cast the spirits as needed, and not really notice or time correctly putting up ST & Boon of Creation right before the cast. So, whatever bonus you get for having soul reaping is wiped out.

Really, I don't have huge energy management issues with my ST Rit.

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Necros are great, just not so much for this one thing. I always use 2 necros though. One is N/Rt healer, and one is N/Mo minion bomber/prot.

Kaleban · Sep 28, 2012, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Well, even in Hard Mode I prefer overwhelming offense to a balanced offense/defense. In my opinion killing quickly is active defense, if the enemy is dead, no matter how much energy they have they can't make use of it.

When I play a caster, I have a setup like this:

Rt/Me ST (only bring Shelter and Displacement, along with other utilities)

N/Rt Healer (Elite is usually BiP)

2x Me/Rt (1 usually brings Panic, the other ESurge, with the rest interrupts), Rt for a hard rez

Me/P (another E-Surge, bringing along Aneurysm and Fall Back/SyG combo)

E/P Blinder (Bsurge, Chain Lightning, Shell Shock and Shock Arrow, along with another Fall Back and Never Surrender)

The seventh slot is usually either a "required Hero" like Koss or Dunkoro for a mission (rocking Endurance Axe or Fallback Smiter respectively) or another Elementalist with either a Water based snaring build (Deep Freeze, Ice Spikes, Shatterstone, maybe Rust) or a Fire Based nuker (Searing Flames usually).

You can do this with standard heroes, you only need one Rit and one Necro, and make Razah a Mesmer. When I run a melee, oftentimes I'll switch out the three Mesmers for three RoJ monks packing SoH and JI, with the seventh slot being a SoS/Resto Rit with Splinter. Since my melee is usually aggroing big mobs, the extra spirits help with damage soak if any mobs get past. Another option is to drop one RoJ monk and bring along a Curse Necro using PoD and packing MoP, Barbs (only works if physical) along with Enfeebling Blood and Meekness, with the rest being Paragon shouts like Fall Back and SyG copies. In this case I'd leave the RoJ monks and holy damage buffs, and just bring Mesmers.

But really, the core of my main adventuring party build is the ST Rit, and the N/Rt BiP healer. This provides party-wide damage reduction and blocking, along with powerful heals and energy regen on demand. The Bsurger provides damage and CC (blind) in a compact package along with Paragon shouts and makes melee ineffective, while being much more active and reliable than an Ineptitude Mesmer. And all can be done without Mercenaries. On my casters (both player and heroes) I usually use Superior runes for the primary attribute (Communing for ST Rit, Air Magic for BSurge) and Minors on the rest, and prefer armor insignias over health or energy. My melee (both player and heroes) generally stick to Minors for all used attributes, and also prefer armor insignias. With decent wand/focus sets for your caster heroes (i.e. 40/40 smiting sets crafted in Factions for my monks) and max weapons on melee, my little band of adventurers rarely takes fatal damage in any area except elite end-game or especially difficult vanquishes with lots of converging patrols, and even then a micro-ed Shelter/Displacement can take care of the alpha strike!

After playing like this for a while, you'll ask yourself why you ever relied on spirit walls or minion bombers at all. Although I will admit that I still sometimes use them, but its so rarely as to be a non event.

Schmerdro · Sep 28, 2012, 06:49 PM // 18:49

I wouldn't bother with the SoGM Rit at all. Just fit all the good spirits on the SoS Rit (that's Pain, Bloodsong, Shadowsong, Disenchantment, SoS, and maybe even Anguish or Gaze of Fury, leaving Spawning Power at 3). You shouldn't assume that heroes are going to play a build in a certain way, you should actually watch their skill bar. And, if you did watch a SoGM Rit, you would notice that they often use their elite and cast their spirits AFTERWARDS or cast 1-2 spirits and then use their elite.

Necroes are great for Discord, Icy Veins, and various non-elite Curse skills but I wouldn't rely on minions too much. Just bring 1-2 non-elite minion skills and that should be enough.

I'm always surprised when people use Displacement on their ST Rit. That spirit will die after blocking 7-8 hits, half of which will probably be from the wand attacks from the enemy Monk. With Union, at least you know that you will have 334~365 total damage reduced. So, in order for Displacement to be better than Union, all the hits that Displacement will block need to be over an average of 45 damage, which I find to be rather high for most HM PvE situations.

Jeydra · Sep 29, 2012, 12:42 PM // 12:42

I suggest you compensate on other heroes - for example, you could slot in Aegis somewhere in your team to replace Displacement, and a good micro'ed Prot Spirit replaces Shelter easily (especially if paired with good aggro), or perhaps Panic if you really need it.

ST is overrated. Its big virtue is that it provides party-wide protection, but good aggro with Prot Spirit compensates for that so much I generally wouldn't even consider ST except in the very hardest areas (UW HM, DoA HM) or in areas where I can't use a MM. SoGM is one of the strongest hero builds around and I recommend caster primaries to always use the hero except in the rare case of 4-man areas with bodies + requires a certain hero, when you might want the SoS + MM + the required hero.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabelan

Well, even in Hard Mode I prefer overwhelming offense to a balanced offense/defense. In my opinion killing quickly is active defense, if the enemy is dead, no matter how much energy they have they can't make use of it.

I completely agree with this statement, but the team you posted also has ST (defensive template), Panic (another defensive template), BiP N/Rt healer (yet another defensive template), and BSurge (yet another defensive template) ...

Kaleban · Sep 29, 2012, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I completely agree with this statement, but the team you posted also has ST (defensive template), Panic (another defensive template), BiP N/Rt healer (yet another defensive template), and BSurge (yet another defensive template) ...

Well, I suppose it depends on your interpretation, but I also didn't list out the exact skills nor do I play with typical "meta" bars.

The ST Rit for example packs 3 mesmer illusion skills to give him some active offense. The N/Rit is the only dedicated healer (and usually the only one packing any heals) and the Panic Mesmer usually is E-Surge unless I'm doing high end areas like DoA. BSurge is basically the old Invoke, just with BSurge in its place, which replaces both the old Air Ele and the Ineptitude Mesmer in one Hero.

My character (a Mesmer) plus the rest are all strict damage, I typically run either another E-Surger or a Fragspike build with Fevered Dreams. The other heroes being E-Surge mesmers and usually another Ele (Searing Flames has synergy with Fevered and Fragility, or a Water Nuker for snaring for AoE damage) or good ole RoJ monks.

So five of the team is all offense, one dedicated healer, one hybrid defense (ST) and one hybrid blindbot. Seems pretty aggressive to me.

Jeydra · Sep 30, 2012, 02:15 AM // 02:15

So from what you've written this is what I surmise of your teambuild:

Player Mesmer with something that's all-out offense
ESurge Dom x2
Panic Dom
N/Rt BiP
ST Rit with Illusion skills
BSurge
SF or Water Ele or RoJ

The only builds among those 7 hero builds listed that I would call all out offense or even offensive builds are the SF Ele and the ESurge Dom Mesmers. Panic is a defensive elite first and foremost; it does have some offensive utility but if it's being used it's for the defensive prowess it provides. The rest of the Dom bar is good damage however, so it's arguable that it's an offensive template with a defensive elite. ST Rit with Illusion skills is ever more a defensive template, because Illusion is so barren that you're pretty much forced into Clumsiness and Wandering Eye, and these are defensive skills. You could run Fragility of course, but that is a key skill to build around and you'd want 16 Illusion, not something you can have on a ST. Water Eles are defensive characters; their damage output is very low. RoJ Monks are also defensive characters, because the reason to use them is to provide some bar push while also having some damage. Their distinguishing feature is the bar push, not the damage. And finally the old Invoke template without Invoke does a lot less damage, because so much of the damage came from Invoke. Especially since you're choosing BSurge as the elite, which is a flat out defensive skill. I would not call this team "overwhelming offense".

Otherwise I don't know about you but you're running with a fantastic amount of antimelee (Displacement + BSurge + Illusion skills on ST) and, if you're not using the RoJ, you also have only one source of bar push, which makes you vulnerable to spikes on the BiP, stuff like Shame and KDs, etc. I would identify both of these as areas you can improve your teambuild with.

But anyway you're right that it's up to interpretation, and if you like your teambuild then it's not mine to reason why

curvekiller · Sep 30, 2012, 11:52 AM // 11:52

I was secretly hoping for Jeydra to post here ^^
So Jeydra, what do you suggest? Just make Razah a SoGM and then take Zei Ri as ST once I get to him? Do I think I can beat WoC HM without a ST?
Also, microing prot spirit sounds a lot more stressful than just having a soul twister sitting there keeping shelter up.
What I've been finding so far though, from testing the team build you suggested in the Ele forums is that it's somewhat vulnerable to AoE if they do get through the double dom mesmer interrupts.

Kaleban · Oct 01, 2012, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

So from what you've written this is what I surmise of your teambuild:

Player Mesmer with something that's all-out offense
ESurge Dom x2
Panic Dom
N/Rt BiP
ST Rit with Illusion skills
BSurge
SF or Water Ele or RoJ

The only builds among those 7 hero builds listed that I would call all out offense or even offensive builds are the SF Ele and the ESurge Dom Mesmers. Panic is a defensive elite first and foremost; it does have some offensive utility but if it's being used it's for the defensive prowess it provides. The rest of the Dom bar is good damage however, so it's arguable that it's an offensive template with a defensive elite. ST Rit with Illusion skills is ever more a defensive template, because Illusion is so barren that you're pretty much forced into Clumsiness and Wandering Eye, and these are defensive skills. You could run Fragility of course, but that is a key skill to build around and you'd want 16 Illusion, not something you can have on a ST. Water Eles are defensive characters; their damage output is very low. RoJ Monks are also defensive characters, because the reason to use them is to provide some bar push while also having some damage. Their distinguishing feature is the bar push, not the damage. And finally the old Invoke template without Invoke does a lot less damage, because so much of the damage came from Invoke. Especially since you're choosing BSurge as the elite, which is a flat out defensive skill. I would not call this team "overwhelming offense".

Otherwise I don't know about you but you're running with a fantastic amount of antimelee (Displacement + BSurge + Illusion skills on ST) and, if you're not using the RoJ, you also have only one source of bar push, which makes you vulnerable to spikes on the BiP, stuff like Shame and KDs, etc. I would identify both of these as areas you can improve your teambuild with.

But anyway you're right that it's up to interpretation, and if you like your teambuild then it's not mine to reason why

Oh no, I love the critiques, makes me think of how I can improve.

First off, the three Mesmer Heroes are usually all E-Surge, with one being a Panic in high end areas where an area interrupt works wonders. Right now my Mesmers basically run skills like Mistrust and Cry of Frustration, along with the good Illusion skills (Wandering Eye, etc.). I will say that I find Panic to be an excellent offensive Elite, especially if it gets cast on a nicely balled up group (if using EVAS on my Mesmer or using shadowsteps on my Dervish) because it seems that the AI doesn't immediately spread out and charge and gets confused for longer, allowing AoE to hit hard.

I'm not sure I would classify a skill like Clumsiness or WE a defensive skill, as these only interrupt a single attack and have decent recharges. What it does do is quite a bit of area damage no matter who its cast on, since AI casters wand quite a bit too. Having these kind of skills on three separate Hero Mesmers does a considerable amount of damage, oftentimes my Dervish shadowstepping into a mob gets off maybe one attack before the entire group is dead, and this is in HM. I figured having even more copies of these Illusion skills on the ST Rit gives him something to do, since all the ST really has to do is maintain ST and Boon, and two spirits. In high end elite areas I switch out the Illusion skills for Ranger spirits like EoE and FS.

I like BSurge for a few reasons. First in HM, any enemy that its cast on is likely attacking, so it will usually meet the requirement for adjacent hit and increased damage. Second its not limited to only three targets, so a nice ball at 16 Air Magic could hit quite a few foes for 80 damage or so before armor penetration, and inflict Blind on all of them for 8 seconds. You get a 3/4 cast spell, no exhaustion (overcast), Blind, and all in a tight AoE that isn't limited to three targets. And the Blind lasts longer than the recharge. And all for a tradeoff of about 10 to 15 damage at 16 Air Magic. IMHO today's BSurge is way better than Invoke.

The Water Ele I sometimes run just because I can lol. The snares from skills like Deep Freeze keep AoE more reliable, but in general its not as useful as a Fire or Air Ele. It is nice to have one just in case I'm up against enemies who have extra armor against Fire or immunity to Burning (like Destroyers) or if I'm doing areas where a Hero split with snares can help slow down or incapacitate if needed. RoJ I usually only run if I'm playing melee (like a Derv or Sin), and have them cart along Judge's Insight and/or Strength of Honor, since I'm not toting an SoS hero with Splinter. My RoJ monk usually then has RoJ, the two aforementioned enchantments, Smite Condition and Smite Hex, a hard rez and a couple of Paragon Shouts. Not a lot of redbar push, more of a utility hero with melee buffs.

Lastly, I like this build because it seems to really be effective against a wide range of foes. Melee gets stonewalled, so even IF they get to the casters before being burned down, they can't hit anything. Enemy casters usually get Mistrusted and CoFed to death, and a well placed Panic (from myself or a Hero) makes double sure that they can't do anything.

However, you're absolutely right about the lack of bar push, with the self-saccing BiPer being the only reliable source, and I have frequently noticed her being priority targeted by the AI. If I'm not vanquishing and don't need three copies of Fall Back for permanent IMS, I usually make one or both of the Eles secondary Rits and replace the 10 command with 10 Restoration magic and bring along MBAS and Spirit Light. I realize I probably also incorporate more anti-melee than is necessary, but I tend to over-aggro on purpose to kill as quickly as possible, so extra anti-melee for an all caster team seems pretty prudent to me. Plus, between the inherent amount of anti-melee and interrupt caster hate on the Mesmers, its relatively easy to tailor the Hero builds to the areas I'm playing, without too much switching around. It also makes it easy if I have to bring along a required mission Hero, such as Koss or Dunkoro, because the core part of the team is quite solid.

I am still even now experimenting with ways to get rid of BiP in favor of other party wide e-management, but when every character has to pack two skills just for energy I seem to lose a lot of damage and fights take longer and are more prone to wipes. I will say that putting Undertaker's insignias on the N/Rt helps quite a bit, since the only time she needs extra protection is when saccing for energy. But I'm going to continue tweaking the build, hopefully I can make it even more efficient than it is now!

Jeydra · Oct 06, 2012, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by curvekiller

I was secretly hoping for Jeydra to post here ^^
So Jeydra, what do you suggest? Just make Razah a SoGM and then take Zei Ri as ST once I get to him? Do I think I can beat WoC HM without a ST?
Also, microing prot spirit sounds a lot more stressful than just having a soul twister sitting there keeping shelter up.
What I've been finding so far though, from testing the team build you suggested in the Ele forums is that it's somewhat vulnerable to AoE if they do get through the double dom mesmer interrupts.

Yes you can beat WoC HM without a ST, I did it using the standard builds I posted in the Ele forums. Like I said I wouldn't give up the SoGM at all and rely on better play, KDing the AoE enemies for example (in general play I hardly micro) and making sure you have a UA, but if you insist on using a ST then the SoS is clearly more powerful than the SoGM (especially since the SoS packs heals as well) so if you have to a Rit one drop the SoGM.

@Kaleban - Wandering Eye and Clumsiness are defensive skills imo, sure they deal damage but they are simply not reliable and you may not get them to trigger when you want it. If you're looking for damage off the Mesmer lines then Domination Magic has better. You cannot be getting one hit only with your Dervish before mobs die unless you're doing something like not use an IAS or casting spells after shadowstepping; it is just not possible. You normally run ahead of your heroes, and Wandering Eye / Clumsiness etc have 2s cast.

If enemies BSurge is cast on are normally attacking, that is because the AI is smart enough only to blind foes that are attacking (I have no idea, since I never use the skill), but even then so what: BSurge does low damage and adjacent range is hardly good. Invoke casts deal more damage than BSurge for that reason, unless you are getting very good balls, but if you're getting very good balls then you're probably balling with a melee player in which case SoA on yourself does more than BSurge ever would. and you can bring bring stuff like Rodgort's Invocation and Energy Surge, both of which outdamage BSurge by a mile. You can "stonewall" melee with BSurge, but then so can you with Aegis.

The easy way to get the energy management if you want to neglect BiP is to use primary profession energy management skills, ST Rit can bring Spirit Siphon, Eles should not run out of energy with attunement + GoLE + Aura of Resto if really necessary, and Mesmers get Inspiration to use. If you want to keep the BiP then the next alternative is to have some healing skills on another one of your characters, the first thing I'd look at is to drop the ST for a standard SoS Resto or simply to use the RoJ in the last slot. If you're using a player melee character then not having Splinter Weapon and Strength of Honour is silly though, idk.